This is the latest in my occasional series of conversations about Christianity, aimed at bridging America’s divine chasm. Previously I spoke with the Reverend Timothy KellerPresident Jimmy Carter, Cardinal Joseph Tobin and others. Here is my interview with Beth Moore, an influential evangelical writer who broken with the Southern Baptist Convention in 2021. It has been edited for clarity and length.
Nicolas Kristof: Merry Christmas! It’s my favorite season, but I’m skeptical that Jesus was born of a virgin. Should we accept miracles to celebrate the Christmas story?
Beth Moore: For those who believe that Jesus rose from the dead, a virgin birth is not inconceivable.
Kristoff: Most Christians today no longer believe that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, nor that Eve was created from Adam’s rib. So why stick with the virgin birth, which, after all, is only mentioned in two of the Gospels and is omitted in Mark, which was probably the first to be written?
Moore: If we were to strip the Bible of its wonders, miracles, and mysteries, we might be left with a religion, but it would not be Christianity or Judaism. The miraculous is essential. But any place is a starting point: anything that draws us into the story. God uses all kinds of aspects to draw us to his center.
Kristoff: About 500 years ago, Catholics and Protestants partly killed each other in a dispute between transubstantiation and consubstantiation. Today, almost no one knows the difference. So should we worry less about doctrine and define the Christian faith based on what people do more than what they believe?
Moore: Our behavior is the result of a belief. God’s love is not only manifested in words but also in actions. For example, it is impossible to absorb the Gospels and neglect the poor. The Sermon on the Mount is engraved in the concreteness of the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 13 says we can be sacrificial and gifted speakers, but if we do not have love, our service is but noise to God. We face a profound failure of discipleship today. Our witness has gone bad.
Kristoff: Like the Southern Baptist Convention and its sexual abuse scandals?
Moore: You have to understand, this was my world. From where I stood, idolatry, misogyny and racism were seething publicly. There comes a point where you say, “No, I don’t identify with that anymore.”
Kristoff: Has this shaken your own religious faith?
Moore: My faith in institutions, yes. Above all, it brought about a tremendous period of introspection and repentance. It was too late for me to be deeply shaken by Christ himself.
Kristoff: Jesus was remarkably open-minded about gender. THE only person in the gospels who beats him in argument is an anonymous woman described in Mark 7:24-30 and more completely in Matthew 15:21-28; she is feisty as she asks for help and responds until Jesus changes his mind. So why does the Church tend to be patriarchal and sexist?
Moore: Christ made a point of bringing in women. You find women among his traveling group of disciples in the Gospel of Luke. Jesus brought Mary from Bethany in theology class. Jesus chose women to be the first witnesses of his resurrection. Why would we rebuild a wall that Christ tore down? Some of these guys have the attitude: “Give women an inch, they’ll take a mile.” » Well, you know what? It’s not their thumb.
Kristoff: When you and I were young, in the 1960s and 1970s, two of the most prominent evangelicals were arguably Martin Luther King Jr. and Jimmy Carter. And now white evangelicals overwhelmingly support Donald Trump. How did it happen?
Moore: The marriage between the Republican Party and the Evangelical Church. As believers in Christ, we cannot surrender to any political party or politicians. We must be led by the Spirit, free agents who cannot be bought.
Kristoff: How should we think about the intersection of religion and morality? One of the most disgusting things I saw was the opposition to funding for the AIDS crisis by prominent evangelicals like Senator Jesse Helms because they thought it would be gay people who would die. Yet when I visit prisons, when I travel to the poorest places in the world, I disproportionately see people of faith – often conservative believers – truly doing the Lord’s work, risking their lives to help others . Somehow, Pat Robertson and these heroic missionaries were all reading the same Gospel.
Moore: I often tell believers who are demoralized and unsure if they want to remain a part of Christianity, don’t go on social media to find out your thoughts on the Church! There we lost our minds. Go to the streets where we do good. Go to fits. To homes for abused women and children. This is where your faith will be rebuilt.
Kristoff: You used the term “Disciple of Jesus”. I wonder if you think the term “Christian” has accumulated so much baggage that we should change our terminology?
Moore: “Christian” is a beautiful and wonderful word. But what I have seen happening in politics has made me change the way I relate to myself and the community of my fellow believers. What has become politically “pro-Christian” too often fails to reflect what is Christ-like.
Kristoff: One element of evangelical principles that I find at odds with this message of love is the idea that only people who have accepted Jesus will end up in heaven. I cringe at the thought of Gandhi, who was a Hindu, writhing in hell.
Moore: There are some things that I obviously can’t explain. But I don’t believe anyone can enter into the presence of God except through Christ. It is the backbone of my faith. I can’t understand exactly what that looks like, but I know the Savior is good. My best understanding of hell is eternal separation from God. I can’t say what Gandhi or anyone else is doing right now, but I believe deep down that the way to God is through Christ.
Kristoff: What do liberals not understand about evangelicals?
Moore: Breaking stereotypes starts with knowing people who don’t believe the same things as you. Case in point: my older brother worked in the theater world, where he encountered and embraced Buddhism, renouncing Christianity as backward and hateful. He was my beloved big brother, one of the most spiritual and talented people I have ever known. In an attempt to save family relationships, all talk of religion became forbidden. It didn’t work for both of us. This left us polite but not close. About ten years ago, we decided to lift the ban and allow everyone to speak openly about everything, including their beliefs, while agreeing to respect everyone’s differences.
Kristoff: Has your brother been won over?
Moore: He died suddenly 10 months ago. My best friend. We were thick as thieves. Thicker than blood. I miss him every second. I can’t say that either of us won over the other, but we won back our relationship and appreciated each other. And he no longer seemed to think that Jesus was a fool.
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